Ding - Exactly.. Good point. Wobble - To be fair, the Watchtower are so crafty that they rarely outright lie (unless I've missed something). Half truths are more common. Just doing as you're told DOES weaken your 'perceptive powers'. Technically there is no list, so that's true.. but could this give the wrong impression of a jw's freedom of choice? I think so.
The Quiet One
JoinedPosts by The Quiet One
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I can't believe the irony..
by The Quiet One inwatchtower july 15, 2011 study edition page 12 paragraph 7 'following the crowd would not train our perceptive powers; nor, on the other hand, would a host of rigid rules in matters of conscience.
that is why, for example, jehovah's people are not given a list of films, books, and internet sites to avoid...worse, it would deprive us of the vital work of weighing bible principles carefully and prayerfully and then making decisions on the basis of those principles.
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WE CAN DO THIS....if you think the idea is as good as I do!
by Terry ini have long had an idea that i think is a very powerful tool in reaching even hard-nosed jw's.. .
it would consist only of actual photographic scans of various documents, articles, photographs such as these from marvin shilmer's blog: (see next panel).
there would be no extraneous non-official text whatsoever.. it would be published the size of an old life magazine and sent anonymously to jw's at their homes.. the cover would clearly contain the words: "all contents originally published by watchtower bible &tract society".
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The Quiet One
Sabastious - I'm very sorry, there's nothing I can do.. I leave paragraph spaces, but my mobile's browser doesn't leave them in when I post!
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WT Nov 1, 2011 SEX - Ten Questions About Sex Answered
by St George of England in(11) what is the wts view on oral sex?.
what questions would you like answered?.
george.
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The Quiet One
Designs, if you're being serious, the clue is in the wording. '..has already comitted ADULTERY with her in his heart'. This only applies to married people, when taken in context.. “Everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” ( Matthew 5:28 )
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Analogy for arguing with a Witness
by sabastious ini have had several fights with my mother over the past few months.
she had been, to my guess inadvertantly, hanging shunning me or not over my head.
however recently i believe she has made her choice to associate with me.
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The Quiet One
Hey. Sorry to hear you're having problems your mother. All I can say is..when I was a believing jw I could happily ignore any evidence OUTSIDE of the Wt magazines. Anything else is Satanic, don't you know.. Anywho, my point is that it was only seeing INTERNAL contradictions and lies on jwfacts.com that finally opened my eyes. The watchtower can't dismiss their own words as apostate or satanic deceit..
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What would Ex-JW's and Born Agains do if it was proven that BAC's gave wrong dates for the end
by booker-t ini am so sick and tired of ex-jw's and born again christians(bacs) always condemning jw's and mormons for giving false dates when in fact born agains have a history of end of the world and rapture date setting.
every time i bring this up to hard core born agains they always say "but those born agains are not apart of my church.
" but in the very next breath they will claim that jesus has "one" church and one body of christ exist.
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The Quiet One
I don't understand why you are lumping ex-jws and born-agains together. Do you mean ex jws who are now born agains? If so, I'll leave the debating to others who are more knowledgeable as to born agains.
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WE CAN DO THIS....if you think the idea is as good as I do!
by Terry ini have long had an idea that i think is a very powerful tool in reaching even hard-nosed jw's.. .
it would consist only of actual photographic scans of various documents, articles, photographs such as these from marvin shilmer's blog: (see next panel).
there would be no extraneous non-official text whatsoever.. it would be published the size of an old life magazine and sent anonymously to jw's at their homes.. the cover would clearly contain the words: "all contents originally published by watchtower bible &tract society".
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The Quiet One
Hope these help--"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now; But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. ? "New Light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it?" Zion's Watch Tower 1881 February pp.3, 188 Evil as these Gentile governments have been, they were permitted or "ordained of God" for a wise purpose. (Rom. 13:1) Studies In the Scriptures Series I - The Divine Plan of the Ages p.250 "The Superior Authorities are the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ." This Means Everlasting Life (1950) p.197 "The Expression "superior authorities" means the political governments or authorities." Lifeeverlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God (1966) p.189 Sodom and Gomorrah Resurrected "Let me give you an illustration that will be forcible: The Sodomites. Surely if we find their restitution mentioned you will besatisfied. But why should they not have an opportunity to obtain eternal life as well as you or the Jew? They were not wicked in the proper sense, for they did not have law or much knowledge. True, they were not righteous, but neither were you when God gave you your opportunity. Christ's own words shall tell us that they are not as guilty in His sight as the Jews, who had more knowledge: "Woe unto thee Capernium, for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom it would have remained unto this day." Thus Christ's own words teach us that they had nothad their full opportunity."Remember," Christ says of the Sodomites, that "God rained down fire and destroyed them all." So, if their restoration is spoken of, it implies their resurrection." Watchtower 1879 Jul 1 p.8 "Thus our Lord teaches that the Sodomites did not have a full opportunity; and he guarantees them such opportunity." Studies in the Scriptures, Series I p.110 This shows us clearly that the eternal fate of the Sodomites is not sealed. When we turn to the Word of the Lord through Ezekiel the Prophet, 16:46-63, we have abundant testimony that the Sodomites will not only be awakened from the sleep of death, but when awakened will be brought to a knowledge of God and to an opportunity of obtaining everlasting life, through The Messiah, by willing obedience. Watchtower 1913 Feb1 p.45 "The Scriptures distinctly tell us that the Israelites and the Sodomites will be sharers in that work of restoration, restitution." Watchtower 1920 Oct 15 p.316 Not Resurrected "Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to complete desolation, from which there is no possibilityof recovery; and so likewise the modern Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites shall be destroyed, and the place where they have inhabited shall be, as prophesied,"even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation." The religious-totalitarian rule and rulers,the commercial robbers and those who have defied Jehovah God and his Theocracy, shall perish for ever at the battle of Armageddon, as the prophecy declares." Watchtower 1941 p.367 "He was pin-pointing the utter impossibility of ransom for unbelievers or those willfully wicked, because Sodom and Gomorrah were irrevocably condemned and destroyed, beyond any possible recovery." Watchtower 1954 February 1 p.85 Resurrected Again "As in the case of Tyre and Sidon, Jesus showed that Sodom, bad asit was, had not got to the state ofbeing unable to repent ... So the spiritual recovery of the dead people of Sodom is not hopeless" Watchtower 1965 March 1 p.139 Not Resurrected "How will these, having been caught, be disposed of? Will they be preserved alive? Will they be killed and buried in Hades or Sheol, which is the common grave of dead mankind, from which resurrection is possible? No, these political organizations are slated to be “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” This the Bible describesas the “second death.” (Rev. 20:14) It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which Jehovah God burned up by a rain of fire and sulphur from heaven, never to be rebuilt. It is destruction in Gehenna in which God destroys both body and soul (any right or possibility of living)." Watchtower 1967 Jul 1 p.409 Resurrected Again "Moreover, God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the peopleof Sodom by a resurrection, with opportunity to learn and turn around to the way of life, even ashis Son stated." Awake 1974 Oct 8 p.20 http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/resurrection.php
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WE CAN DO THIS....if you think the idea is as good as I do!
by Terry ini have long had an idea that i think is a very powerful tool in reaching even hard-nosed jw's.. .
it would consist only of actual photographic scans of various documents, articles, photographs such as these from marvin shilmer's blog: (see next panel).
there would be no extraneous non-official text whatsoever.. it would be published the size of an old life magazine and sent anonymously to jw's at their homes.. the cover would clearly contain the words: "all contents originally published by watchtower bible &tract society".
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The Quiet One
Terry, I think that the core of your idea is absolutely brilliant, as it bypasses the 'don't open apostate literature' order from the FDS. But can I please make a suggestion? .. I wouldn't use the oath of allegiance, seriously. The jw will likely be suspicious that it's faked and disregard/tear up the rest, and then it's Mission Failed. And that's besides the fact that some apologists will argue that they only swore to defend and have allegiance to the CONSTITUTION, not to any government. I'm sorry to say that, when you really do some research, there are actually clauses within this particular oath to allow religious people to just swear allegiance to the constitution, as in obeying it , but still let the person have their full and unlimited loyalty to God, not to the government.. And another clause that allows people who won't defend the constitution militarily to do so by merely upholding and promoting its principles.. Unless I've just been taken in by it all, but my point is that it's not going to be a sure-fire success if even an 'apostate' like me is unsure... "There would be no objection to his taking an oath to ‘uphold or defend’ the provisions of the law that do not stand in opposition to God’s law....Thus the Constitution of the United States, as well as that of many other nations, guarantees freedom of religion. It is understood, then, that a Christian is not going to berequired to do anything contrary to his religious beliefs and his obligations to God."-The Watchtower , January 15, 1973, p.63. ..The memo states: "Pledging that one will"support...the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic,"...does not burden the religious exercise of persons who object to subordinating their allegiance to God to their allegiance to a temporal power. This phrase saysnothing of one's relationship to God and lists only temporal enemies. Instead, the "support" phrase requires only that a person abide by the nation's constitutional system of government and its laws." -Page 9, paragraphs 2 and 3. Regarding "defend", the memo further states: "Pledging that one will defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic,"...does not burden the religious exercise of persons who object to resorting to arms. It makes no mention of arms or war. Rather, the phrase is the mirror of the pledge to"support" the Constitution: One promises not only to "support" the Constitution generally, but also-in a manner not specified-to oppose those who do not"support" it. "Support and defend," used together, are effectively a unitary phrase." -Page9, paragraph 4. The aforementioned memo continues: "Pledging that one will bear "truefaith and allegiance to" the Constitution does not burden theexercise of religion of persons who object to subordinating their allegiance to God to their allegiance of the United States....Properly understood it simply reinforces the immediatelypreceding "support and defend" clause, by requiring that one pledge an honest and faithful commitment to the Constitution as opposed to other temporal powers-not as opposed to God." -Page 10, paragraph 3. Italics theirs. Clearly, whatever 'allegiance' is here given to the United States is clearly acknowledged as being subordinate to allegiance to God. But what about that Watchtower statement? 'Allegiance' is defined as "the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government" and "devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause." Despite the stigma the word may have among some Witnesses because of the Pledge of Allegiance, it basically means loyalty, such as to the government. Hence, the argument 'Witnesses say they give their only allegianceto God's Kingdom, and Witnessesgave allegiance to worldly governments, therefore Witnesses are hypocrites' contains an equivocation fallacy involving the word 'allegiance'. How? Remember, allegiance means loyalty, and Marvin Shilmeragrees . Loyalty, that is, allegiance, can be both limited and unlimited. Hence, when Jehovah'sWitnesses say that they give theirallegiance only to Jehovah God and his kingdom, it is speaking of their unlimited allegiance. Keepin mind what the 1964 Watchtower said, as quoted earlier: "Because Christians can be loyal both to God and to earthly governments they can take oathsof allegiance to defend the Constitution..." (Emphasis added.) An excellent example in this regard is the marriage vow. In a marriage vow, you pledge loyalty, or allegiance, to your mate. Nevertheless, a wife can be disloyal to her husband if he asksher to break a command of God. Why? Because her allegiance is limited . And, in this vein, Marvin Shilmer has once again agreed that "the nature of any specific loyalty is determined by whateverloyalty is promised or asked for and given." Hence, there are varying ways to pledge allegiance to a country." http://stayawake-standfirm.blogspot.com/2010/08/jehovahs-witnesses-and-oath-of.html
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WT Nov 1, 2011 SEX - Ten Questions About Sex Answered
by St George of England in(11) what is the wts view on oral sex?.
what questions would you like answered?.
george.
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The Quiet One
I couldn't believe when I saw the front cover of this.. Is it just me? How the heck are jw's supposed to offer this magazine? This scene just played itself out in my head.. *young brother knocks on door, it opens to a woman* ''Hello ma'am, we're just here today to ask, what are your views on sex? Ouch. *walks away, talking to partner* Did you see that, she just slapped me and slammed the door in my face! Persecution is obviously increasing, the end must be near!''
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Mass Apostasy- Sign of the Lords presence
by mankkeli inthis quote is from the watchtower 1980 8/1.
"are you profoundly shocked and unduly disturbed when you see or hear of a christian you know yielding to doubts, cooling off and perhaps even becoming rebellious to the point of deserting the christian congregation and trying to draw others away with him?
if so, you may be comforted in knowing that, sad as such occurrences may be, the scriptures forewarn us that they will happen.. among the various causes of apostasy, one of the foremost is unquestionably a lackoffaith through doubt.
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The Quiet One
Punkofnice, I'm not sure if anyone else has told you this, but you seem to be absolutely brilliant at picking articles apart and highlighting the language that is used by the writers to control jw's minds. When I first arrived here, it was your posts that helped me to realise HOW MANY baseless claims are made every week in the mags. Maybe I'm just saying all of this because, after having survived another mind numbing meeting, I feel glad to be able to come on here and be mentally stimulated again.. Anyway, keep up the good work! :)
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Watchtower defiance against Hitler
by The Quiet One inwatchtower october 1, 2011 page 14 'did hitler receive letters of protest from church officials concerning the outrager perpetrated by the national socialists, or nazis?
there were some, but such letters were few and far between.
in the moscow archives, however, eberle found a file containing a number of letters sent to hitler by jehovah's witnesses..protesting against the conduct of the nazis.
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The Quiet One
Thanks for the replies.. With regard to the difference between Rutherfords stand and the view of rank and file jw's, even the Declaration itself WASN'T actually adopted unanimously, and the wording of the German declaration was scapegoated onto someone called Brother balzereit... -'7,000 brothers got there. For many of them it took three days, some riding bicycles the entire distance, whereas others went by truck, since the bus companies refused to rent buses to a banned organization. Brother Rutherford, who, together with Brother Knorr, had come to Germany just a few days before in order to see what couldbe done to ensure the safety of the Society's property, had prepared a declaration with Brother Balzereit to be presented to the convention delegates for adoption. It was a protest againstthe meddling of the Hitler government into the preaching work we were doing. All high government officials, from the Reich's president on down, were to receive a copy of the declaration, if possible, by registered mail. Several days before the convention started Brother Rutherford returned to America. Many in attendance were disappointed in the "declaration,"since in many points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Brother Mütze from Dreseden, who had worked closely with Brother Balzereit up until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. It was not the first time that Brother Balzereit had watered down the clear and unmistakable language of the Society's publications so as to avoid difficulties with governmental agencies. A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In fact, a former pilgrim brother [traveling evangelist] by the name of Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It could not rightfully be said that the declaration was unanimously adopted, even though Brother Balzereit later notified Brother Rutherford that it had been. The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed.' 'the 1974 Yearbook account assumes - apparently on no more authority than the unsubstantiated beliefs of a " Brother Mütze from Dreseden "-that Paul Balzereit was the one who "weakened" the Declaration. Balzereit may well have been responsible for having the Declaration translated into German, and he may also have been responsible for drafting the letter to Hitler. Yet there is clear evidence to suggest that he did not tamper with the wording of the Declaration.'' ''First, the Watch Tower Society published the English version of the Declaration - which is virtually identical to the German version - in the 1934 Year Book of Jehovah's Witnesses as its official statement to Hitler, the German government, and German officials, high and low; and this it would not have done without Rutherford's full approval. Second, the English version of the Declaration is clearly written in the judge's own bombastic style. Third, the statements directed against the Jews in the Declaration are more in keepingwith what an American such as Rutherford would have written rather than a German. How, for example, would Balzereit know the "proverb," so called, concerning New York which says: "the Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills"? Fourth, Rutherford had been guilty of a similar compromise with secular authority in the United States in 1918 in a vain attempt to escape imprisonment. [17] Then finally, he was an autocrat supreme who would not have brooked the serious type of insubordination that Balzereit would have been guilty of had he "weakened" the Declaration. While it must be admitted that this evidence, although strong, is circumstantial rather than direct, this makes little difference in the long run. Regardless of who wrote the Declaration, the fact is that it was published as an official document of the Watch Tower Society .'' ' http://www.bible.ca/jw-penton-3rdreich.htm